americans, everyone should pay something, something. 85% of republicans 81% of independence, but this number floored me, spoon 71% of democrs feel this way, i caught up with paul ryan, on the issue, maybe that is something that mitt romney was trying to clarify on this idea much spreading the wealth, end tax cuts. from ryan earlier. >> i was a little bit confused yesterday, congressman, when mitt romney was talking about the tax cuts he was invisioning, they would not be as big as you think, when you factor out you know, how we would phase out exemptions and allowances and deductions it may not be the big tax cut a lot of people were looking forward to. is he trying to brace us for some bette bitter news.

>> no, lower tax rate, triggers economic growth, when people ask about, whose tax loopholes are you go after? we say by closing tax shelters for higher income earners, that allows us to lower tax rates for everyone. middle income tax payers get higher take home pay, businesses get lower tax rates that helps theme compete globally, and create job, by denying tax shelters to hire income earning that means we can lower tax rates on everyone without losing revenue, we get more revenue because we continue will glow the economy, these kinds of pro growth tax reforms, ronald reagan and tip o'neill did it, we are proposing it that a pro growth sleuth t solution to gete

back to work. neil: left out but a remarkable insight was a added come about what happens when you remove credits and exemptions and special allowances, the same thing that ronald reagan did in 1986, idea, making sure those who dodge taxes pay something in taxes, something ryan, said he is open to do emany conservatives in the party, say, any time do you that, it is a kin to raising taxes, ryan draws a major ca to take in what pat buchanan, on this fast moving development. what do you make of this. >> when i was ai i a kid was tha saying that rich pay more than

anyone else but everyone contributes there is concern that you hear 47% or 49% are not paying income taxes at all. let me say with regard to what ryan talking about. if you drop rate from 35 to 28, you have to cut or cap interest deductions, for state and local income taxes, and there is a relucreluctance on part of repun to point out what is cut and capped. neil: i'm wondering, something interesting in way that ryan, and romney yesterday, explaining a notion of taking the deducts and changing them so even though general rates come down, more people get into the tax paying pool. now, i see this poll out, that shows 79% of americans think that everyone should have skin

in the game, like the worlds are converge will. and the media is not on this phenomenon. what do you make of that? >> i don't understand -- i mean, i know why the a lot of folks are not paying taxes some, below level, other get tax credit for children. neil: but it should not be 47%, i don't know how the hell it got that. >> frankly republicans and democrats contributed to that you talk about national defense and highways, and things like that everybody should pay something. you notice governor kaine, running down there for senate, former governor kaine, he said he would look at a tax proposal where everyone at least pays something. i think there is a -- i think that is a very american sentiment we all contribute. i came from a family with 9

kids, and we all put together to buy something for parents, i think that has real appeal, once you get in to specifics, you got problems. neil: you know, interesting in this, is that, even though romney caught hell for his 47% comments, accord toth poll, pat, 63%, think that substance of his comment about dependence on government is somewhat true. he is right. what do you make of that? >> you know something, 1935, fdr in his state of the union, said this relief, that is welfare is a narcotic, a subtle destroyer of the human shar hume must and shall get out of this business of welfare or relief, he is right, they did get out of it everyone agrees, if you have

somebody that is down and got a rile problem, we all get together and help them out, and that -- against something that appeals to the american people. but idea that people on food stamps are never going to provide for their own food in america, their entire lives, when i grew up in washington d.c., 800,000 people, half african-american, half white, no body was on food stamps, there were no school lunches, now maybe you need some, but 47 million on food stamps, 80 billion for food stamps, more and more folks needing to fed by government, i think all of us sense that something is happening to the character of country and our people when we get there. neil: i do think you are right on this respect, we're worried about gets -- someone's nose out of joint on the 47% comment, we can arg but those who pay other taxes, we can talk about those who are poor, and those who are

retired and paid in that is not the point, but to look at that figure, how the hell did it get to nearly half of the -- you know, eligible taxpayers not paying income taxes, that is the issue that -- and from this poll, that is the issue that still greatining -- grading americans. >> in terms of economic could and politics, look, folks on medicare, they now get prescription drugs that george w. bush delivered. once they depend on the benefits of government you have half of the country depends on it but a lot are deserving they already paid in. but income tax, you have a situation it is finished for the party, we'll get taxes you don't

pay. they are not going to vote for republicans, that is one of the long-term endemic problems of the republican party, the republican parties, my old boss ronald reagan, and george w. bush contributed to. neil: thank you, sir, pat, always a pleasure. >> always. thank you very much, neil. neil: all right, well i have a filing this might come up as a debate next week it could be a game changer that maybe media is wrong page. we are out in denver for the opening salvo, what will be for debate that kicks in denver could we're there 8:00 p.m. eastern time through midnight, unlike a lot of other business networks that say, yeah it is a big election, be there or be square, we're there. you know, until we're not. don't be late. >> meanwhile, the guy who said that president obama push to make taxes high, might have hit a new low, did the president say

rich guys who point lovs who dor taxes don't love their country? >> and why the guys in charge are charging us right off the cliff.

neil: president coming out swinging, hitting his favorite target, rich fies guys, with a patriotic duty to pay more.

so jay, you hear this, and are you offended or what? >> i think it's shameful our president would accuse people who disagree with his tax policy unpatriotic, does that meaner mean erskine bowles and unpatriotic, the president owes everyone a apology. i am a supply side economic guy, i disagree with his policy, i am as patriotic as h he is, i am offended, i have a number of obama supporters that are appalled. neil: you are not enthused with what we said.

dan, i thought, i guess he is okay with the 47% who don't pay income taxes, some legitimately ly, i know, that is a staggering figure, but that is okay? >> that is, neil, i assume you are directing it to me. neil: yes, i am. >> first of all that is a mischaracterization of what really happens, 47% don't not pay taxes, okay? >> i know we're income taxes, income taxes, all i'm saying okay it is not. >> yes, i know a lot of them, you know what i'm saying, he does not cite the fact that 47% are not paying income taxes. >> not federal income taxes, they don't pay a 1040 tax or file a 1040 form. neil: you think that can get a

pass. you think that can get a pass. >> neil, let's get beyond that, let's talk about the patriotism issue, first of all, focusing on a four point program, only one of the elements, you know, related to higher taxes on the wealthy, most was about fostering the economic status of the midet class and having growth from middle out, not top down. neil: where, was patriotism to reduce spending? >> in my group, patriotic millionaires for fiscal strength, we believe in modestly, slightly higher taxes on wealthy persons, consisting of people who make a million dollars a career or more that roughly correspondents to top%

as a temporary measure to address what you are talking about fiscal crisis, you can't solve the fiscal crisis as made clear in simpson bowle report by cutting spending. neil: but he leaves the spending out. and it might be in a future. >> it is in the plan. >> he rejected -- he rejected simpson bowls, the very debt commission that gave him ideas, he least it at the altar, you know that. >> not true. neil: it is true, i was in washington whether he did it. >> grand barring an bargain he o boehner in the day, was dramatic spending cuts a ratio 4-1 in favor of spending cuts, but, the

fact, is you cannot solve this debt problem, without a addressing revenue increases. and that was parts of the plan that obama referred to today. neil: but, switch it around, you hear -- no, wait, you hear this, and i am hearing no progress that is what i'm hearing issue more of the same. >> at the expense of offending your other guest, i think this is nonsense, if you tax the rich and took all their money away it would be, it -- it would care the government for a000 red -- hundred days, i am told to pay my fair share, i'm willing to pay my fair share, no one has told me. neil: 39.6%. >> we had a proposal which it was go back to clinton era

rates, represented a 4.6 percentage point increase, that is 13% on people who pay earn a million a year or more. white house had a variation on that, the so-called buffett rule, a 30%. neil: people disagree with that. if rich guys like jay, disagree with that, and say, look, you already taking enough from me, you are not solving underlying spinning problems, and not getting another penny out of me, does that make them unpatriotic? >> no, that is not what he was referring, to patriotism is a modest sacrifice by very affluent people on a temporary basis. neil: do you think it is temporary? do you think a tax increase is temporary? >> that is what we proposed. neil: okay, what do you think of that, jay? are you okay with that?

>> look, neil. >> i'm okay with it. neil: i know you are, jay, answer that, are you okay with that? >> well, neil, let me go down a different road, i have a number of friends in my same economic situation that are glad to pay more taxes if we had confidence that this administration would not flush it down the toilet as they have with the massive spending products which are unproductive, i give millions of dollars a year away to poor, as do my friends, that does not count in terms of what accumulating what i pay for domon good, and my taxes and contribute. there has been no debate or dit distribution to hundreds of billions that wealthy give to causes that benefit the good. neil: a final point. >> but here is point, if you

take all charitable giving, most reliable figures that were that about between 650, and 7 billion a year. that is not -- that is for all charitable giving, that includes education, medical research, you know aid to the poor, and et cetera, contribution to nonprofits. >> now we're getting off topic. >> that is a drop in the bucket. neil: jay, and dan, i want to thank you both it say mess, and getting messier, we'll have more after this. after

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neil: a lot of red states with republican governors have economies they are pretty proud of. that should be a red flag for the president, because policies he does not like to be causing

this by cutting regulation, and slashes taxes, cutting down on public unions, all pumping those economies up, republican congressman michael burgess said that the president could learn from this, ironically he meeting wins in polls in those swing states, so maybe he does not care. >> well, i suppose that could be true. but i live in texas, economy here has over performed as benchmark against the u.s. economy for last several years, iin 2007 we didn't know about recession for a full year because of the energy production in north texas, it has made a difference here in jobs, and income and disposable income. neil: but congressman, it is uncanny that let's say big swing

states, i talk about you know ohio, and florida, and michigan, and wisconsin. where you have republican governors take charge, whether you like them or not, they seem among the most noteworthy state you know, growth. and they are the states in which because they of improving you could make an argument that the incumbent president is benefiting even those the policies -- it is weird. >> i hope people are able to see what the reality is, you are right. neil: so far they are not. they are not -- they might whether he or she is up for reelect, but they are credits the president. >> when election happens in november, they need to vote their pocketbook that is what matters. in texas we're a right-to-work state, no income taxes, a

favorable regulatory climate do not let lawsuit run wild it is a reflect in the economy. >> breaking news. when we come back, maybe it is time for "new york times" to take a time out, media double stanstandard that has one andy puzzler, puzzled.

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democratic super pacs are finally drawing, kind of wealthy donors who have already made republican outside groups a pivotal force in 2012 campaign. but i sense that times finds these democratic pac rats let ratty, story leads off talking about a language island investor, -- longoy been island investor, and they had the word philanthropist. so great lady just -- left out this detail. and piled on virtues of democratic givers, me? you either think all pacs are pathetic or you don't, or they are all peachy or they are not. i don't think it is evil or bad, it is free country, it is their

cash, have it it. here is what i won't have, when new york times comments democrats for finally gets into the pac game. up to now mainstream made why has all but called a republican-rigged evil campaign it is weird. you are either all in or all out, all pacs good or bad, save the picking and choosing for the voters and not your editors trying to influence who is more varityuous for those voters. and with me now, a big backer of mitt romney, andy -- that headline struck me, then story i red struck me because, i'm reading in the same papeer that blasted pacs when it helped the republicans. >> good to see you, the coverage

in this campaign, by traditional media has been horrific. neil: this proves it right here. >> yeah. well, whether it is the economy or look at middle east, is blowing up, on fire, our ambassador was killed, our embassies under attack, fox news breaks a story that within 24 hours of first attack, that administration knew it was a terrorist attack and really did not disclose that for weeks, for political purposes really. so his foreign policy did not look like it caused problem, this apology and appeasement policy, could you imagine if george w. bush it tried to cover-up the fact that something was a terrorist attack, everyone with any sense knew it was. neil: or had the gall to go on air, and say these are just bumps on the road. but, you know, having said that, i understand how media works. but you know, i guess, i'm old

enough to remember a time when media liked to sort of you know, jerk everyone. you know, go after everyone, it is well going after michael dukakis for response, to bernie shaw about what would he do with if his wife were raped. it -- it used to go after jimmy carter who talking about how he consulted his 8-year-old daughter amy on nuclear proliferation it loved to get a gogot you with either party, now it seems, i'm not saying just right or left. but only the right, where they go for this when sometimes, it is obvious as all heck, both sides if you want to go there are giving you ample room. >> when i was in law school, james restin came to speak, during my freshman year, it was refreshing to hear him talk

about journalism, yo you put our feelings aside, it is gone, your example with pacs is most recent, there is foreign policy, and the economy, what do you hear people talk about, any little improvement in the economy it is how story of president obama on the right track, and very little coverage of the 48 straight months of unemployment. neil: durable good orders sliding and housing industry not taking off, these numbers don't get the coverage, i think saying, this is weird, you know. >> on shows like this, there are a few shows that are factually based, i think that fox does a great job, and they make every effort to be that, there are other shows a few, that do as well, but certainly aches aches,

and seeks cbs, the coverage is standed. in all likelihood, if you watch traditional media sources or reading times are post, you are not getting the whole story, maybe not even an honest story, but you have to look behind facts and articles. neil: i leave it as you did, and i'm open to it attacks on both sides as long as it is both sides, go crazy on the other guy too, therefore a time when the media just did so. but, it is weird. andy, always a pleasure. >> i want to get back in that argument about taxes too, i wanted to jump in while i was listening. >> that another saga because, i lost my appetite. but andy, thank you very much,

let's get you back again. >> thank you. neil: he might need them, where the president is slamming the fat cat bankers, that could be backfiring. >> some people on wall street who took the unbelieve able risks, with other people's money. >> i did not run for office to be helping out a bunch of you know fat cat bankers on wall street. >> american people will not excuse or col -- collaborate such arrogance.

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neil: well the wall street guys that president loves to bash could be getting less cash, fat cat hedge fund guys are expected to get thinner bonuses this year, they will spend less this year so the economy will feel the hit this year. president probably hopes this happens after the election, it is a factor?

>> it is, the less disposable after tax cash the hedge fund managers have the less ipads and iphone 5s they purchase to drive higher consumer spending. neil: they are still getting money but not as well. >> those are folks that go out and hire people to start new hedge funds, their second fund or third fund, so,. neil: is the hedge fund industry as big as it was. >> absolutely not. as a result of increased regulation from dc has decreased the industry. and then, of course, neil, the markets have been volatile in nature. >> but the wind at president's back? it would be a kick to get reelectioned in part because people feel richer to paper, from the same group that president e despairages. >> interesting he despairages

the folks he calls fat cats, in fact those are the one that a lot are donating to his campaign, and as well will continue to drive the liquidity to the marketplace. neil: what do you think they do now? i argue, if it gets close to elect, he they will donate en m, because they are phony little worms, and they want to be on the good side. i think they go to the winner like 4 years ago, and they might run back it him. >> looking at historical data, they go to the winner with a better view on who the winner will be, i think that is because, you know, they are in the marketplace, and political and economic economy is more connected than ever. neil: he not a fat cat, they are wrong on this potential train wreck coming at the end of the

year, if congress and the president do not solve it or address it, more like financial armageddon, but it does not have to end that way, dennis hastert and richard gephardt on how cooler heads could still prevail, so too could our country's credit rating.

neil: we have a real washington horror, because forget campaign cliffhangers, still weeks away, focus on country going over the cliff, weeks after that. all those bush tax cuts expire, all those automatic spending cuts kick in. the closest thing to financial armageddon as you can get, so many deadlines so little time.

no matter of who wins, that will be the most talked about issue in 41 days, what to do about this mess. time is a wasting, and it may be time to hear from each party their idea, they have good ideas, unfortunately, they don't have lucid, calm folks like these two gentlemen to express them. former house speaker dennis half thhastert and richard gephardt, speaker hastert, how real is this you know, train wreck talk? how much do you worry about it? >> i think it will is real. and all of a sudden if we see our credit ratings hit the skids, if all our ability to loan money, interest rates going up, all these can happen, and taxes go up, and spending really

does not change. i think we'll heading for a real disaster there is real positive things that we could do, we need do it on a bipartisan basis. neil: dir dick gephardt what kif positive things can be done. >> main thing is to all accept a goal, i mean not just policymakers but american people, we want a strong agreeing economy, that is the goal, not just deficit reduction or reducing taxes or reform, get this economy to lead in the world, that is what we need, a lot can be done, we can have tax reform, closes loopholes and lower rates for companies and individuals. we can cut spending in a way that we help with growth. and help with jobs.

>> what do you think that ratio should be? spending cuts. >> neil, it is the $64 question, only policymakers can decided that. neil: but they are not deciding it. >> in past, in different time its was 50/50, i doubt you should to that now, during the budget talks in last year, they talked about three to one spending cuts over tax increases, you can put it did where you want, but in the condition we're in first of all you can't do this overnight, you need a 10 year plan because right now, the economy is not surging forward. neil: looking at december 31, and i guess that is what i want to raise with you, dennis, one thing paul ryan told me earlier, he does not think, unlike some

more conservative purists in the republican party might disagree when you close loopholes or end special credits that might be a tax increase to some, he said it a way to get into the tax paying group. those who have up to now been avoiding paying taxes, he is for, that cid that mitt romney is for, that and explaining more that romney-line po ryan ryan position would lower tax breaks but get of e. tions and credits, would that be palatable do you think? >>absolutely. what you have to do is. neil: it wasn't a year ago. >> look, all if you broaden tax breaks that means sorts out some of the egregious tax cuts and bring the tax responsibility to

more people, have more people have a little bit of skin in the game. also have to really set where your revenues will be, last time we balanced budget we were about 15% of gross national products, it could be 19%, right now we're spending for%, so, you know, 48-cents of every dollar we spend we borrow, we can't continue to to, that we need to you know, lower our rates, but we can do that if you broaden the base. neil: that is the issue, broad ups the base. >> ale talk about another pet peeve of democrats i want to to address, any attempt to rein in the growth of entitlement has been met with fierce resistance of the republicans, not all, should and do you expect democrats, regardless of outcome

of the election will be more inclined to do that, other than they are relieved it is over? >> the trick, is getting everyone to be part of the sacrifice. you know, all of us, need to say to one another, in this country, and need to say to american people, we can't solve this problem with just one group doing something. and others not doing anything. so there has to be spending cuts, across the board, there has to be tax increases, of some kind to bring in some more revenue, if you get everyone to sacrifice, like we have many times in the past, on a bipartisan basis. neil: that would be like going back to the debt commission. everyone holding their breath, and holding their hands and jumping off together. >> and getting to a specific plan that both sides can accept. and a compromise means,

everybody takes pain. neil: very good, but, do you think that is likely, there are a lot of folks who say after the heated election there will be a collective relief of to sort of cobble together a deal, any sort of a deal, they my start with pushing this back 6 months to deal with it next year. >> they may push it back to sort it out, congress really does bipartisan issue is when we face a disaster, look at 9/11, we came together and did things nobody would we worldcom do, i would do. i think you can do the same thing in a fiscal crisis, you know leader gephardt said, you have to broaden the base, and go through and readjust what tax cuts are, does not mean that everyone gets a tax increase but you can change some tax cuts. if you do that, you can start to

target what you are spending. and really probably need to do that first, then you, you start to grow the economy and pay down the debt. one of the toughest pieces of legislation that i had to pass of a deficit and re reduction a, we got it back from the senate 45 billion, and by time it of 40 billion its was a huge lift. neil: did you it and you are proof that you know that kind of stuff can get done, you both, serve your country admirably, have you have to go back to washington, and fix this. thank you very much. >> you're welcome. neil: we'll have more right after this.

i know the name of eight princesses. i'm an expert on softball. and tea parties. i'll have more awkward conversations than i'm equipped for because i'm raising two girls on my own. i'll worry about the economy more than a few times before they're grown. but it's for them,

so i've found a way. who matters most to you says the most about you. massmutual is owned by our policyholders so they matter most to us. massmutual. we'll help you get there. pettus. >> you might not believe this but as a kid i would have to explain a bad grade to my parents. i came up with duties. one time i said this teacher was ridiculously tough. trying to make lemonade i reminded my parents you should see the other kids in the glass. in college, i blamed the rhetoric -- ridiculous early start times at 8:00 in the morning. i like to point* fingers and

make excuses. just like my weight condition is a thyroid issue. i like to eat. my dad would say i think it is still a d. he was right. it was a flop. take good durable goods orders they were bad. not awful but then they were still down. just like pending home sales dropped? you could blame the weather the sales were from loaded but they were not their last month. end of story. retailers blamed bad weather but do not credit good for other.

or insisting cars were bought early in the year. now sales are soft. there are many variations. there has been offered every variation to explain. but like my grades and they are what they are and for a recovery is not good. if you inherited them or not. john: tonight weir at the and old trial liberal campus university of north carolina at chapel hill. the word freshman is disparaged it is sexist. and the code says explicitly implicitly asking for sex is against the code. what does that say against